First, you can Tank a Hulk such that it takes more isk than the Hulk is worth to gank with a reasonable number of characters. (You can also fly a Hulk such that you are immune to ganks)

Simple: have Orca lock all your hulks and use a capital shield rep. Granted, this is not solo mining, but mining not solo is far more effective in many ways.

Like I've so patiently explained to the black hole that is your mind in other threads, you Tank your Hulk (which means you need 5-6 Catalysts just for the tank) then you use RR. I don't consider 12-15 characters to be a reasonable number to gank a Hulk. 6 might be, and that requires 6 Tornados. That's a total cost of around 500m Isk, or more than the value of the Hulk

I find it increasingly fun - when people try to grief me - to grief them back to the best of my abilities

You can only do it with two if you use ships and fits that cost a hell of a lot of ISK, which was his entire point. It's entirely possible to set up a tank so the gank costs more than the Hulk.

You see, your precious two Catalysts cannot deliver the 3,550 DPS or the 20k alpha strike (each) required to get the job done. You need (far) bigger stuff.

Not combined. Each. So no, they can't.

Fair enough, I missed the 0.5 / 20s. On the other hand, that means we're talking about another 40k EHP, so no, it won't be enough.

Show me the Talos that can do 110k damage before a shield rep cycles.

GǪactually, I was using the old, low-tanking non-MSE version. Sorry about that. Let's try this one instead:

Damage Control II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
2+ù Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
2+ù Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

= 37.2k EHP vs. blasters.

6+ù Large Shield Transporter II GåÆ 4083.7 EHP/s +ù 20s = 81.7 EHP

Gêæ 118.9 EHP.

Four of your Taloi are required, costing you 320M ISK in ships alone (and to get that DPS, you need a fair amount of expensive equipment on top of that).

Funnily enough, no, unless you're using some very odd blaster ammo.

GǪwhich still means it costs far more than the ship is worth (because, again, alpha costs) and still can't be done with two people. So yes, thank you for finally getting the point and agreeing with us.

Then you're doing a 60/40 split in the favour of Kinetic damage, for a total of 39.4k EHP.

Void L GÇö 50/50 split: 38.7k EHP.
Again, the only way to get it to 35k is to have 100% ThermalGǪ i.e. not blaster ammo (and especially not high-damage blaster ammo).

The fit I posted (2 T2 Invulns, 1 named, 1 suitcase, name MSE, CDFEs) does it just fineGǪ and we haven't even introduced the variable of fleet bonuses yet.

Hulk GÇö the EVE version of a Scotsman.

Then you didn't enter it properly. Try again.

You mean the fit I listed?

If you want to waste implant slots on stuff that isn't beneficial to your mining, then that's your problem.

What other mining ships are you planning on flying?

SoGǪ none.

Well, then it's a sensible thing to fit for the ship you're going to use the most with that clone, alongside those mining-related implants to get even more out of that ship, wouldn't you say?

GǪor am I concluding from your lack of response to the question that, in your mining clone, you're mainly going to fly the primary mining ship GÇö a ship, as it happens, that benefits from the implant in question.

but again, it's not like there's anything more useful to put in that slot.

Against those Taloi, they effectively do as previously shown.

So, you're CHOOSING not to fit your ship to counter a spectacularly unlikely gank. Well, that's your choice.

If it fits, it fits. You're the one posting Officer fit, Slaved T1 Cruisers (you still owe 6 of them), a 2km/s Cloaked ship, and a Cheap, 2 person gank of an RRed Hulk. Why are you complaining about a single fitting implant?

You can do similar things with un-implanted Hulks.

As luck would have it, there are quite a few organised logi pilots (they pretty much have to be GÇö it comes with the territory).

Miners can choose how well protected they want to be. If you get into a ship before you're able to fit it to easily perform the duties you want it to do, that's your choice. You might want to fly it in such a way that you can compensate for your lack of fitting skills.

1) No fit that I have seriously suggested has anything that expensive in it

GǪor reduce your fitting needs elsewhere.

As luck would have it, there are quite a few organised logi pilots (they pretty much have to be GÇö it comes with the territory).

Jita Says...

3.5m, aka Cheaper than your T2 Strips.

Excellent money-making opportunity then. Hop to it. (Never mind that, if you look at the page, it's quite clear that you've misplaced your comma).

Jita is the standard for determining prices

You seriously looked for the highest sell price in EvE. Holee...[:roll

Just because you choose not to protect your mining fleets doesn't mean it's impossible to do so.

Making friends or using your own alt.

or skill another character for Basilisk.

Still your problem. The fact remains: it can be done and your choosing not to do it for whatever reason doesn't make it impossible.

I'm suggesting that the flaws you insist exist in the Hulk are results of your own decisions. The problem is you, not the ship.

Then I'm suggesting that you are a liar and that the flaws you insist exists in the Hulk don't insist at all and that you know this full well from your own experience, so you can stop it with the blatant idiocy and wilful ignorance.

Yes. 30k is roughly where your tank will end up if you emphasise tanking over other considerations on a T1 cruiser and even quite on par with what you get from many standard-tanked T2 cruiserGǪ

GǪand those are designed for combat, unlike the Hulk. So definitely decent enough for its size.

Sig radius 150 GÇö standard cruiser size. About to be made the GÇ£step upGÇ¥ from ORE frigates, just like a cruiserGǪ

GǪnah, they're cruisers.

Fine, so they're frigates, and thus tank outstandingly well for their classGǪ

No, you're confusing me with you again.

You're also engaging in a fallacy commonly referred to as GÇ£moving the goal postsGÇ¥.

What capital has a 285 Base Sig Radius?

GǪbecause this is what the game mechanics use to determine how large or small a ship is in terms of how easy it is to hit and how well it survives large (or smaller, or same-size) weapons. As it happens, the barges fit perfectly in the cruiser bracket.

By the same token, how many Drakes can you put into one?

Tippia never claimed you could fit 3 Hulks in there.

As it happens, the barges fit perfectly in the cruiser bracket

So it's not a battlecruiser, but rather one size down GÇö something along the lines of a cruiser.

So please quote the bit where I said that you could fit 3 Hulks in an Orca.

As it happens, the Arbitrator's Sig Radius is 282. I believe that that is, according to you, a Moon or a Capital ship.

Now, could you please quote the bit where I said that you could fit 3 Hulks in an Orca?

Because it has a different volume, much like how many of the other ships in the cruiser bracket have differing volumes.

Neither do normal cruisers (unless you do to them what you do to the Hulk to effectively give it 100k+ EHP).

It still fits well inside the cruiser bracket, both in terms of how it takes and how it tanks damage, and your litany of goal-post fallacies doesn't change this fact. Mechanics-wise, it's a cruiser when it comes to survival, which is the topic at hand.

A HIC. You mean the Ship Class that does nothing other than Tank?

No. You can stop lying since you already know full well that this isn't true. Regardless, the same holds true for the other cruisers so the Hulk still tanks like a cruiser.

Yes, since you can easily keep it from being destroyed if you want to. And anyway, as mentioned, this doesn't mean it tanks worse than your average cruiser.

No. The simple fact remains: you cannot kill a properly tanked Hulk with two ships before CONCORD arrives. Your decision to not properly tank the Hulk doesn't mean it can't be done GÇö it means your scenario gets disqualified on the grounds of colluding with the enemy.

Again, if you're going to make such a stupid claim, do it properly: say that you need zero ships to destroy a Hulk before CONCORD arrives.

Amount Repped during that time ~89k EHP.

(We're going to overlook for a moment that, no, the Scimi GÇö or more accurately, the Basilisk GÇö does not die if you do that.)

We know. Why are you telling us?
It's nice that you realised this on your own and intend to try again, but you don't need to come back and post every attempt.

Yep. 467 dps will not gank the 40k EHP a 4 rep, cap stable Scimi fields.

And no, I want to play the GÇ£not enough damageGÇ¥ card. 2+ù 467 DPS for 20s = 18.7k damage = not enough to even chip the paint.
What are you shooting at that range? Spike? Another 50/50 Kn/Th split that feeds right into the Basi's 86%/91% Th/Kn resists and which, with a bit of luck might get the ship below 80% shieldsGǪ

No, just 78k vs. Kn/Th (but I think I got the percentages swapped)GǪ but 70k of those are in the shields and it unavoidably has a bit of shield regenGǪ

LSE II + 2+ù Invuln II + DC II + 2+ù CDFE I

Cap stability is not required GÇö when something turns red, just slump over and have your forehead hit the F1-F6 keys. It has enough cap to feed the reps until CONCORD arrives.

Oh my. If only it had lowslots.

You fitted it with T2 transporters, didn't youGǪ?

Basi's don't fit MWDs.

75k. An what gank do you propose will be doing 75k damage with Spike?

Not only close, but even 68 EHP overGǪ Thermodynamics is your friend.

and we were discussing T1 Cruisers at the time you promised that "Most Cruisers have 80k EHP"

And that's not what we were discussing when you claimed that most "Cruisers have 80k EHP."

Again that's not what we were discussing when you claimed that most "Cruisers have 80k EHP." Because Reps are not EHP. They are Tank, a separate stat. Also seperate is the amount of damage that a Specific type of gank needs to do to kill something before CONCORD.

Against Void, the fit at the end of this post, when repped for the 20s duration of a Gank, has 39k EHP, and is repped for a total of 89,040 EHP.

Oftentimes, words are omitted when they would appear redundant if included.

"repped for a total of 89,040 EHP repped." would be the full phrase without the omitted word.

See how it appears redundant. The term EHP, or Effective HP, is used to differentiate from Raw HP.

No. Those are just some names with numbers after them (the names are also wrong, by the way)

Post the fits.

No, your constant failure to provide the fits isn't getting interesting GÇö just tedious.
Just admit that you were lying as usual and get it over with.

So you admit that you don't have any fits. Good.

Now sod off.

What fit, liar?

Are you going to fail to produce any support for this lie, just like you can't provide any support about your lies about those cruisers?

It also entirely irrelevant.

You already tacitly admitted that you were lying, and lying even more by posting fits that have nothing to do with the topic doesn't change that.

We were talking about T1 cruisers when you promised that "most" fielded 80k EHP.

Only one of those you list is a T1 Cruiser.

Are you going to lie about someone promising you one?

Show me the Talos that can do 110k damage before a shield rep cycles.

Link. If you're going to quote me out of context, have the decency to provide a link so I can see where the conversation was.

Any other lies you want to 'fess up to? Such as the fabled cruisers that you never have been (and never will be) able to produce?

You already know you did, liar.

It's only on the same page, liar.

GǪand quoting parts of a conversation between that post and the previous one, liar. You immediately understood the meaning of the word then, liar, as shown by all your answers, so why are you lying about not understanding it now?

Or should we add GÇ£being able to readGÇ£ to your list-o'many-lies?

Amnesia is a serious medical issue.

And yet you showed understanding of the common meaning of "Cruiser" when you posted the first 4 fits.

Because they're Heavy Assault Ships, Heavy Interdictors, Force Recons, Combat Recons, and Strategic Cruisers instead.

What made you immediately think of T1 cruisers when asked about fits?

nobody flies a BB without ECM

In essence, you can make a Hulk survive a gank. Alternatively, you can just go for the long haul, skip that, and include the occasional Hulk loss as the cost of doing business as a highsec miner. Either way, the risk is manageable.

Quite elementary, really.

If you manage the risk, you won't.

Move to a WH and mine grav sites so they can't locate you?

examples: explains covert cloaks, explains the 1 minute aggression timer + running back to the gate advantage, explains agility versus enemy scan resolution, explains how the 360 scanner is your only defense tool against combat probes, suggest scouting, etc.

If they are pre-aligned, they can insta-warp the second anyone enters the belt. Staying aligned means moving towards a safe spot at 3/4 speed. So unless they aren't paying attention (which happens since mining is boring as @$!*), you won't have a chance to get in range to bump them before they warp off.

The Orca can fit a tractor beam and you can fly in a quasi orbit around the asteroids using bookmarks.
The Orca can fit a bunch of webs (same with the Hulk) and you can mine with both aligned with a Safe spot or POS.
And finally, the Orca, with its 66.8m/s max speed can keep up with 75% of the Hulk's base 87.5m/s or 65.6m/s.

A Hulk can, with simple T2 Fittings tank itself such that it cannot be profitably ganked. With a little more effort, it cannot be ganked for less than the cost of its hull. We've gone through this many times.

In addition, with a little effort, a Hulk can escape all ganks.

Prove it.

In other news news, I decided to abseil with out the proper equipment or training & fell out of my harness. I hit the branches of several trees on my way down which undoubtedly saved my life. The ground however, broke my legs, spine & left shoulder & I will be unable to walk for the next several months.

IMO a single patch of ground doing such damage to the human body is just taking advantage of unbalanced life mechanics.

Sounds really stupid doesn't it? That's because life, just like EVE, is not fair.

The Hulk pilot should also know about involved risks & take them willingly.

This is relevant how?

Yes. Let's look at those balance changes:

A way to mine relatively gank-proof, but with poor yield, much like what you can do now, but built into the ship.
A way to mine at massive yield, but being weak to attack, much like what you can do now, but built into the ship.
A way to mine solo, without a sufficient yield and a sufficient tank, much like what you can do now, but built into the ship.

GǪso as far as balance goes, it just reinforces what we have but makes it more difficult for the miners not to get the hint.

And anyway, you know people will just go for the max yield and still complain that they explode in new and surprising the same way as always.

No.

Hence GÇ£noGÇ¥.

I love this thread

Which Killmail is that? Orca's are a pain to gank (and unless someone's stupid enough to put valuables in Cargo, not profitable), and the AB Basi orbiting at 40km is kind of a pain to get dead as well.

1) Do you know who owns the wreck of your ship when you die?
"When players are killed, any containers dropped from their ship are still owned by them. The same goes for the wreck that once was their ship."
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Container_and_wreck_ownership

GǪbut only if you don't do it for profit..

Sure. Start paying those bounties. Nothing's stopping you.

But I'm not sure what your point is.

So, you're saying that you like putting strawmen up in front of the windmills you tilt at. Gotcha.

Nope. But it would be a silly system, and I'm curious what trap you're trying to set with it.

It would be a terrible system for the game. A massive new isk faucet causing rampant inflation would be stupid.

It would't be worse for gankers than anyone else, sure.

I still don't get why you're proposing NPCs wade chest deep into the market again.

or quickly make this discussion relevant to the topic at hand.

Ok, why do you think that?

That is true. Where do I say that that is a problem or unbalanced?

Miners can tank their ships to avoid ganks. They can be active to avoid ganks. Or they can do neither and get ganked for profit.
That's all just fine.

Nope, the mining barge change won't change anything.

Miners who want high yield or large cargo bays will be able to be ganked profitably.
Miners who bother to tank their mining ships will not.


The only difference is that you'll now know which miners are which through D-Scan rather than having to ship scan them.

Where did I say you wouldn't be able to tank the Hulk? Or that the Hulk would be changed at all? (it might be, but I certainly don't know)

What are you talking about?

I did. There is nothing about anything like forcing ORE fittings on mining barges.

You can fly a tankless Hulk for the best possible mining output, but you run the risk of being ganked for profit unless you take other steps to address that.

OR you can fly a tanked Hulk or a (Post Buff) Procurer/Skiff and render For-Profit ganks impossible.

Oh, and you still haven't explained what you were talking about re: ORE fittings.

2) Even if that were true, what's the problem?

The Current Hulk (which is the only one we have numbers for) maxes at 36k vs Blasters, not 15k.

And EVEN if your lying numbers were true, the new Procurer will take the place of the Hulk when you're worried about ganking but CBA to pay attention to your 300m Isk investment.

Stop Lying.

The way CCP presented it was that the hulk would mine the most, and the alternative(s) would mine less but tank like a BS. Since a BS can already mine more than anything but a covetor or hulk, the tanked ships will mine more than a BS, but less than a hulk.

Unless CCP fucks it up, which is 42% likely.

GǪyou mean the thing they're in the process of doing? And why isn't it going to happen that the Skiff gets within a reasonable distance from the Hulk in terms of yield?

Kinda like how best sniper setup means no tank on an apoc.

Its not for a battleship.

So that means the hulk is perfectly balanced in that going for max yeild = no tank. Just like everything else.

GÇ£Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use and 7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range per level.GÇ¥

Yes it is.

If you want to get the most damage out of it then yes, it gets less/no tank.

3x heatsinks, 3x tracking. That leaves how many tank slots?

You thought that untill I showed you how to fit it. Several times.

You're confusing yourself with other people again. You're getting worse GÇö seek medical attention.

Again, you're confusing yourself with other people.